Specifically, the British part of it.
Via Charles, the Brussels Journal points out this quote from Tony Blair on the Koran:
To me, the most remarkable thing about the Koran is how progressive it is. I write with great humility as a member of another faith. As an outsider, the Koran strikes me as a reforming book, trying to return Judaism and Christianity to their origins, much as reformers attempted to do with the Christian church centuries later. The Koran is inclusive. It extols science and knowledge and abhors superstition. It is practical and far ahead of its time in attitudes toward marriage, women, and governance.
Under its guidance, the spread of Islam and its dominance over previously Christian or pagan lands were breathtaking. Over centuries, Islam founded an empire and led the world in discovery, art, and culture. The standard-bearers of tolerance in the early Middle Ages were far more likely to be found in Muslim lands than in Christian ones.
That sound you heard was my jaw dropping to the floor. That Muslim empire that the Koran helped found? It was done by the sword. That claim that it was “far ahead of its time in attitudes toward marriage, women, and governance”? Bullshit. This is the book that states definitively that a woman’s testimony in court is worth only half that of a man’s. This is the book that allows a man to take four wives, but women may only have one husband.
Then there’s that whole “trying to return Judaism and Christianity to their origins.” Uh, hello, the Koran has absolutely nothing to do with “returning” Judaism to its “origins.” Judaism never got away from its origins. The Torah that we read in synagogue every Shabbat is virtually unchanged from the Torah that was read when Mohammed was wearing diapers. It’s the same Torah that Jesus studied as a child and adult. It has not changed in 2,700 years. How much closer to our origins do you think we need to be, Tony? Temple worship? Fine, just get rid of that mosque on the Temple Mount, and we’ll be happy to oblige.
I really hate it when people who are utterly ignorant of Judaism profess to tell us what Judaism is all about. And when it comes from the leader of a nation that sits on the UN Security Council—well, you just have to shake your head and wonder how any of his advisers could have read that and not said, “Er, Mr. Prime Minister, do you really want to put it quite like that?”
The above quote is excerpted from a Foreign Affairs article by Blair.
It looks like Tony boy got the abridged version of the translated Koran. His copy just happened to have had aggressive and sexist texts removed or rewritten for the European temperament.
IMHO, Islam indeed dose want all non Muslims to get closer to God – either we convert or die under the sword (both great ways to get closer to God).
“The Koran is inclusive. It extols science and knowledge and abhors superstition. It is practical and far ahead of its time in attitudes toward marriage, women, and governance.”
Holy Cow.
“Under its guidance, the spread of Islam and its dominance over previously Christian or pagan lands were breathtaking. Over centuries, Islam founded an empire and led the world in discovery, art, and culture. ”
I’ll say it was breath taking… like taking the life and breath of many people who would not bow down and worship Allah.
Yeah, it founded an empire alright… and sucked the marrow out of the previous civilizations that had resided there.
Sure they had scientific advances, but it was the dhimmi’s who did it.
And when the dhimmis reached a critical minimum within the bounds of their empire (due to death, conversion, enslavement, and just plain fleeing), and the dirtbags could no longer extort dough from China, India, and Europe by merely squatting on the silk road trade route (The ‘oil’ revenue from another age…) due to the sealanes that developed outside their realm, they folded up and became what they were at the fall of the Ottoman Empire: a bunch of vicious, corrupt tribesman killing each other over the biggest beachfront in the world.
Charles has gone brain dead. Either that or he needs to get his head out of his … er… Buckingham Palace, and rejoin reality.
…um…. Holy Cow.
Correction: I thought it was ‘Charles’ as in Prince Charles. It is actually Tony Blair.
My Bad. Its still idiotic though… :)
“Charles has gone brain dead.” Unrelated to the post – I have missed any special signs of brain activity in that case at all times.
On the subject: let’s take Tony B.’s speeches with a grain of salt. He is a politico, after all, and is just gathering some brownie points.
I expect a similar speech from GWB soon too. And then – Olmert, you shall see…
“just get rid of that mosque on the Temple Mount”
I’d love to see that, whether there’s another Temple or not.
Erm, is it just me, or did the Christians also convert by violence during the Crusades? Didn’t the Christians fight the Muslims pretty brutally on both sides? All organised religion is politics.
That said, they made great art.
“let’s take Tony B.’s speeches with a grain of salt.”
You and I can take Tony Blairs words with a grain of salt.
But there are many people who take a celebrities view as truth. Why else do movie stars have such persuasive power?
So if T Blair is just trying to get brownie points, that just further condemens this as irresponsibilty on his part considering that he is not only a celebrity, but an authority figure.
Kinda makes you wish that British Airways flight to Miami went just a little further down the runway… perhaps tumbling… in flames…
I’m glad the man’s retiring. Apparently, every Western leader on the verge of leaving office or feeling the doom of lameduckery has to drop their pants and screw Israel hard.
Andrea, not the point. The point is that Blair is claiming that the Koran is something that it isn’t. In fact, he is saying that it’s quite the opposite of what it is, and lying about how Islam achieved its empire.
It wasn’t through proselyzation.
blair — who is leaving odffice soon –said this to – in effect – purchase some life insurance.
“It wasn’t through proselyzation. ”
Yea, garnering spoils and loot in the name of Islam. The property, women and children of the vanquished enemy came under the ownership of the soldiery of Islam.
Its a small wonder that there is a big conversion (to Islam) of incarcerated ‘skinheads’ in Europe today. The brownshirts sure know easy pickings when they see ’em.
Actually, he is right. Back in its heyday, the Muslim empire was MUCH more tolerant towards the “People of the Book” (i.e. Jews and Christians) than Christianity was. We were in the midst of our Inquisition, rooting out and killing anybody who disagreed with us. They just taxed them.
We wouldn’t let women inherit. At all. Even if her husband died.
Muslim women were at least able to keep their husband’s property, instead of passing it on to their brother-in-law.
So yes, at one (very distant) point in time, Islam was much more tolerant and had much better treatment for women.
And despite the expansion of its empire, it didn’t forcibly convert people, because Mohammed said that “there must be no compulsion in religion.” Of course, taxing them was another matter.
Here’s a wiki article – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam
“Much of the population of this new empire was non-Muslim, and aside from a protection tax (jizya) and other restrictions, the conquered people found their religions tolerated. Indeed, Muslim authorities often discouraged conversions.”
And – “Abbasid caliphs Harun al-Rashid and Al-Mamun were great patrons of arts and sciences, and enabled these domains to flourish.”
Chris, when you say “we” you should say “we Christians,” because you’re not speaking about Judaism.
The Muslims did far more than tax dhimmis. I just put up a new post with more information.
Of course, given that the Torah was given 50 days after the Exodus (“you shall count 7 complete weeks after the day of the ‘Shabbat’ [meaning the holiday of Passover]”) that means that the Torah (the five books and the Oral Law) is 5766 – 2448 = 3318 years old as of last Shavuos.
Sabba Hillel, I know it’s older than 2700 years. But the one I link to can be scientifically proven to be that old, a fact that cannot be argued by nonbelievers.
I know, I just can’t help pointing it out because I keep seeing the articles stating that it was somehow “made up” at some point during our history and everyone magically accepted all the “changes” and totally forgot the way it had been the previous day.
Then when more evidence crops up of its existence at an earlier point, they rewrite the articles making the same claim.
Even if we find the original Torah that Moses wrote,they would still try to deny it.
Actually, I expect that it is like the age of the Earth argument. Until we find the original UL dated seal, noone will ever agree.
True, I was referring more to ‘we Christians’. And while the Arab culture did oppress Jews, they also offered better opportunities. There were many Jewish advisors and key figures in some of the Arabic courts.
But the point wasn’t so much to over idolize the Muslim past, so much as to show that they have not always been the backwards, brutal and intolerant rejectionists we make them out to be.
And, perhaps more importantly, if we are ever to end terrorism Muslims have to believe that their own faith calls them to be tolerant. So its better to offer up an ideal such as that, than it is to go on and on about how horrible they are.
No, the point is that Blair is not being truthful when he pretends that Islam was not spread by the sword, that it did not subjugate women, and that it treated non-Muslims well.
My people WERE in a Muslim country ages ago, but it was a Christian country first. Spain. And while the Muslims in al-Andalus treated Jews better than the Christians did when they regained Spain, frankly, asking me whether I’d rather be oppressed by a bad guy, or a really bad guy, is an asinine question of the “when did you stop beating your wife?” variety.
Facts are facts. Blair is not speaking the truth.
The benevolence of the Caliphate towards the Dhimmi is a lie. This includes not just the Jews but the sufferings of Christians too…
Chris, at one time, I had thought like you did – that the caliphate was just to those who were dhimmis.
But as time wore on, and I had the luxury of much reading at my finger tips, I came to realize that that was a myth propagated by a variety of powers for a variety of reasons.
Bat yeor describes the Myth thus and says it better than any other article read:
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Modern politicians, sophisticated writers – using phones, planes, computers and all the modern techniques – seemed to be returning several centuries back, with wigs or stiff collars, using exactly the same corrupting arguments, the same tortuous short-term politics that had previously contributed to the gradual Islamization of numerous non-Muslim peoples. I had to shake myself in an effort to distinguish the past from the present. …
…Curiously, this myth started in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 19th century. It alleges that Turkish rule over Christians in its European provinces was just and lawful. That the Ottoman regime, being Islamic, was naturally “tolerant” and well disposed toward its Christian subjects; that its justice was fair, and that safety for life and goods was guaranteed to Christians by Islamic laws. Ottoman rule was brandished as the most suitable regime to rule Christians of the Balkans.
This theory was advanced by European politicians in order to safeguard the balance of power in Europe, and in order to block the Russian advance towards the Mediterranean. To justify the maintenance of the Turkish yoke on the Slavs, this yoke had to be presented to the public opinion as a just government. The Ottoman Empire was painted by Turkophiles as a model for a multi-ethnical, multi-religious empire. Of course, the reality was totally different! First the Ottoman Empire was created by centuries of jihad against Christian populations; consequently the rules of jihad, elaborated by Arab-Muslim theologians from the 8th to the 10th centuries, applied to the subjected Christian and Jewish populations of the Turkish-Islamic dominions. Those regulations are integrated into the Islamic legislation concerning the non-Muslim vanquished peoples and therefore they present a certain homogeneity throughout the Arab and Turkish empires – and, apparently, in Muslim Asia too.
The civilization of dhimmitude, in which the Serbs participated, had many aspects that evolved with changing political situations. They suffered from the same oppressive laws and prejudices that concerned all Christians and Jews in the Islamic Empire. From the 1830s, the Ottomans embarked on reforms (Tanzimat), aimed at the emancipation of their Christian raya (dhimmi) populations. They didn’t act on their own volition, rather they were forced to accept them by the European powers. It was not out of humanity that European politicians wished to abolish the degrading condition of the Christians; they promoted these reforms in order to prevent their seeking Russian help to liberate themselves from Ottoman oppression.
****It is important to understand that the civilization of dhimmitude grows from two major and interconnected religious institutions: jihad and shari’a, which establish a particular ideological system that makes it mandatory – during the jihad operation – to use terror, mass killings, deportation and slavery. ****
http://www.dhimmi.org/
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I could continue with article after article, fact after fact of the outright persecution and systematic destruction of the Dhimmis (christians included) through the centuries by the Caliphate (which they are far more guilty of than all of christendom), but it then becomes a debate that could last a very long time and we are only in a comment section at Yourish.com
Tony Blair is crazy. See this post on my blog with my comments, with actual quotes from the Qu’ran to show how wrong he is.