Well, isn’t this special:
THE LEADER of the Coptic Church, Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria told Egyptian television last month the Western Churches were wrong to exonerate Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and criticised recent statements apologising for Christian anti-Semitism.
In an interview with Dream 2 TV broadcast on April 8, Shenouda was asked if the Coptic Church would follow the lead of the Western Christian churches. Shenouda responded that the Christian Churches had “done nothing that warrants an apology,†adding he believed the apologies were being “done for appearance’s sake.â€
Asked whether Jews were “Christ-killersâ€, responsible for the crucifixion, Shenouda stated, “The New Testament says that they are,†and asked rhetorically whether the Vatican was “against the teachings of the New Testament?â€
But wait, there’s more: The Pople is afraid of sheer contact with the wicked Jews:
Shenouda stated he had banned Copts from visiting Israel for fear they will “be influenced by the Israeli media, and we will not be able to prevent this. Who knows what ideas they will return with?â€
So let’s see. The Muslims in Egypt hate the Jews. The Muslims in Egypt also hate the Christians in Egypt, though many pretend they do not. (See: Laws affecting the building of churches in Egypt.) And now, the leader of Egyptian Christians is saying that it’s okay to hate the Jews. It’s like Tom Lehrer sings:
Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.
Meryl, what’s the Jewish position on Christ and his death? Did he exist at all? Were any of his teaching valid? Did the Jewish community have anything to do with his death, or is that considered a misrepresentation?
I can’t speak for “the Jewish position on Christ and his death” because there is no “official” position, except for the fact that he is not considered—by Jews—either the Messiah or a prophet. He was just a Jewish guy who lived 2,000 years ago. His teachings, as they have been passed down, resemble much of what Jesus learned as a Jewish Torah student.
Your “golden rule” is a paraphrased reversal of Hillel’s saying, “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow”. Hey, the Pope even wears a kippa.
As to whether we consider any of Jesus’ teaching valid: Once again, I can’t speak for all Jews. But I can speak for myself: No. It isn’t Judaism. What is valid to me are the teachings of the Torah. Everything that came after the Torah is someone else’s religious teachings, not mine.
I would give him a bit of slack, Meryl…not a lot, though. His people in Egypt are subjected to constant pressure and persecution and I wouldn’t doubt that his words were tailored with an eye to what the Egyptian authorities would think of it.
That’s the reason for a little bit of slack. The reason for not a lot of slack is that it’s a hateful and inciteful thing to say, albeit not surprising.
Curiously enough, the Copts are Christians but their plight does not seem to move the Episcopalians or Presbyterians, whereas the sins of Jews cause them great pain. I wonder why that is.
Any “Christian” who still believes in an ethnic group of “Christ killers” does not respect Jesus, who was Jewish – not “Christian” – and his apostles, who remained so. Indeed, that was troublesome for several centuries as the original heads of the sect required converts to Christianity to first convert to Judaism.
It seems to me that, if Jesus was just a Jewish guy, with no special significance, then it is not particularly slanderous to say that he was killed by Jews. If I were to say “Caesar was killed by Romans”, that is not an indictment of Romans in general, because their victim was also Roman, and that society, like any society, was occasionally capable of killing.
It seems that Shenouda’s comments only become slander if one thinks Jesus was in fact a unique individual, whose life should have been uncommonly inviolable.
Yes, it would seem that way. You see, ultimately, it really doesn’t matter to Jews if you say we killed Christ. My students get called Christ-killers as a matter of course by their Christian schoolmates who are, I suppose, suffering from an excess of Christian love and affection for their Jewish brethren when they use that phrase.
But the effect of the words “Christ-killers” on Christian-Jewish relations has never been good. The Christ-killer rap has been used when Christians want to kill Jews, destroy their homes and synagogues, steal their property, and throw them out of whatever place happens to be accusing them of killing Christ in the first place.
You really have to be kidding me. You’re not seriously going to try to defend the Christ-killer label with the above argument, are you? We shouldn’t care about it because we don’t acknowledge the divinity of Jesus?
Now that’s a first. Extremely disingenuous, but a first. Holes wide enough to drive six or seven Mack trucks through, but still a first.
Well, obviously the term “Christ-killer” is designed to provoke. That phrase should not have been used.
But it really boils down to perspective. If I’m convinced that you, Meryl, caused the death of my pet hamster, and I say “Meryl, you hamster-killer!”, that doesn’t make me slanderous, it just makes me crazy. My intent is not evil, my belief is just wrong.
Let’s ask it this way: If the reporter had phrased it very clinically and asked “Do you believe the Jews were responsible for the execution of Jesus of Nazareth in 33 AD?”, and he’d answered “Yes”, would that still have been offensive?
No, it boils down to your ignoring the import of whether or not Christians think that Jews killed Christ.
You can dance around that subject all you like. I’m going to keep saying that you are entirely missing the point by doing so.
With the Christ-killer label and the ban on Copts travelling to Israel because of the “Israeli media,” I think it’s safe to conclude that Shenouda III (I keep wanting to say Sharona as in “My Sharona”) definitely qualifies for dhimmihood.
Frankly I see this as a dichotomy within the Christian faith. Jesus’ death is the basis of Christianity and the sole basis of forgiveness; there is no other way left for forgiveness. Therefore this was God’s plan so it seems to me that gratitude would be in order. Also Pontius Pilate is presented as an unwilling executioner, whereas the truth was that the Jews at that time were under subjugation of the Romans. I would think the Romans if anyone would be the guilty party, but as I mentioned Jesus’ death was the greatest single act that saved humanity so the Jews should have our everlasting gratitude. Anyway according to Christian Gospels Jesus was only dead for three days, he was God not a human, so I will never understand the basis for Christian anti-Semitisim.
I think I do.
We said, “No.”
Dear Meryl
The way I see things is that Jesus was a Jew. So if the Jews killed another Jew how does stating this constitute anti-Semitism? Instigating hate speech and violence because of this is anti-Semitism. Incidentally, Jesus is seen as Christ for Christians.
To my knowledge Pope Shenouda III has never endorsed hate speech or violence against the Jews, which is why I think the title of your article ‘Egyptian Coptic Pope: Anti-Semitism is all right with me’ is a little loaded. What you have to understand it the Coptic Pope is under duress to make certain statements. He is in Egypt where Islamists are frothing at the mouth for the opportunity to attack the Copts. Statements like I think the Jews are Ok, or I think the Jews are great end up in a thousand + people dead, Churches desecrated or burnt to the ground, Nuns stabbed, Christian business and houses looted and destroyed, Christian women raped and their men imprisoned and tortured by police. So with a little hindsight and reviewing what he said and avoiding the possible consequences I think he navigated the ship to safe waters on this one.
I’ll give you an example and to prove my point that he’s under duress is the quote in Al Ahram newspaper released when the Catholic Pope allegedly insulted Islam, Pope Shenouda said “any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ.†Now when you consider that attacks by Muslims occur on a daily basis in Egypt and the Coptic Pope is privy to most incidents, would he be making such statements? No. When the Catholic Pope came to Egypt the Coptic Pope did not meet with him (I don’t have to state the reasons).
Thanks
David
Meryl,
All religions are successor religions and have problems with predecessors.
What we are taught about the the various sects in Canaan, the Midianites, the Egyptians, and the “Greeks” dating to Maccabee period also are blood libels of a type.
A glance finds that Shenouda is 90 years old and appointed by the Egyptian government.
We have very high ranking old school rabbis that age who spout similar drivel.
Chris,
On dhimmihood, there is no monopoly. You should hear some of the apologia I did out of our religious leaders in Turkey.
David: You know, no matter what, his comments still amount to anti-Semitism.
You don’t get to encourage hate of another religion in order to save your own ass, and the asses of your people.
I don’t think the “He’s a coward” defense is particularly defensible.
Itzhak: They’re not “blood libels.” We’re not using them to murder Canaanites, Midianites, Egyptians, and Greeks. You find me a relatively modern instance—say, in the last 400-500 years—when a group of Jews murdered a group of non-Jews for their religious beliefs, using a bogus excuse like “They killed our god!” and we can talk. Until then, you’re just equivocating.
And David, regarding the death of Jesus being Jew-on-Jew violence… first, read what I said to John. We’re not the ones who care about who killed Christ, but we’re the ones who pay the price to those who do care. We’ve been paying the price—in Jewish blood—for nearly two millennia.
It’s a disingenuous argument to say that calling Jews Christ-killers isn’t anti-Semitic. Of course it is. The “Passion plays,” plays that dramatized the trial and death of Jesus, were used to drive crowds into a frenzy, which resulted in mobs attacking and killing Jews.
Let us not pretend that the accusation has no inherent threat. Let us not pretend that it is meaningless if we don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. Once again I point out that it isn’t what Jews think of Jesus that counts. It’s what Christians think of what Jews did to Jesus.
We didn’t murder ourselves in the pogroms. We didn’t burn down our own synagogues.
That would be the Christians, blaming Jews for the death of Christ, who did that.
Dear Meryl.
I am an Egyptian and let me tell you that, not only do Shanoudas comments go against every jew on earth, but they also go against the majority of the Egyptian peoples views on jews.
Egyptians in general do not have a problem with jews individually, as it tells us in the Koran that we must respect the people of the book (jews and christians).
Unfortunately for everybody concerned we have in Egypt an atheistic propaganda driven government who constantly play games at the populations expense.
In Egypt i have friends both jewish and christian, and some of the generalistions on this website, such as “Egyptians hate Christians or “Muslims hate jews and copts”, frankly appall me. There are certain aspects we disagree with both religions on but we respect people on individual merit rather than their religion.
We, as a nation disagree with some jews on political issues, such as Israel, but most regular Egyptians can differentiate between Israel and everyday normal jews.
Sam, it’s wonderful to hear that you think that way. But the facts aren’t bearing you out. Muslims have rioted and murdered Christians in Egypt, fairly recently, over spurious and false rumors. Copts can’t build new churches if Muslims in the neighborhood refuse to allow a church to be built there.
I wish that most Egyptian Muslims were like you. But I’m withholding judgment in light of the above facts.