Something about the beautiful summer weather brings out the crazies and the idiots. Of couse, I think the “Jews” for Jesus people are both, but I’m glad I don’t work in metro DC and have to put up with this crap:
A two-week evangelical campaign designed to bring Jews to Jesus is underway in Washington, taking this question to Metro stations, Nationals games and popular spots like U Street: Is Jesus the Jewish messiah?
Well, no, he wasn’t, but don’t let that get in the way of your ability to annoy.
That is the core belief of the international missionary organization Jews for Jesus, the best known of dozens of messianic Jewish groups that have sprung up in recent decades. Followers believe that Jesus was the messiah mentioned in Jewish scripture. The group, which has a $17 million annual budget, defines its mission as “making the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to Jewish people worldwide.”
And here we must point out that the budget is almost wholly devoted to converting Jews, and yet, the Jews, they do not convert in droves. Go figure.
The group is loathed by many mainstream Jews.
You got that right, sister.
Washington area Jewish organizations and the InterFaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington have condemned the campaign, saying Jews for Jesus proselytizes too aggressively and misleads potential followers by using Jewish symbols, portraying their places of worship as synagogues and referring to Jesus by Hebrew names.
This is what’s known as the tactic of “lying.” It’s used when you have no other way to get your point across. One of the other ways that J4Js lie is when they pretend their congregations are Jewish, when in reality, just about every J4J congregation fills its seats with Christians, many of whom have no idea that the “Jews” in their church aren’t really Jewish. Because the other thing that J4Js do is call everyone who has a drop of Jewish blood in them Jewish. You grandfather was Jewish? Cool! We have another Jew in our J4J congregation. Halachic law? What’s that? The stuff that was superceded by Jesus? Whoops, wait, I didn’t mean to say that….
“You don’t dress up fundamentalist, evangelical Christian missionaries in Jewish clothing and call it Judaism,” said Scott Hillman, director of the regional office of Jews for Judaism, which works against groups trying to convert Jews to Christianity.
Amen, brother!
Oops. I got so caught up in the Christian evangelical part of the J4Js, that I forgot where I was.
More than 30 Jews and Christians from Washington and across the country are participating, a far smaller number than in 2004, when 600 volunteers were trained to hand out leaflets.
Aw. Gee. They’re losing ground. Could it be that those wily Jews have caught on to these bogus Jews? Ya think?
Organizers say that is because 2004 was part of an unprecedented five-year, 38-city, global Jews for Jesus campaign that cost millions. The D.C. area push that year, which cost about $200,000, was also promoted heavily by the Rev. Lon Solomon, senior pastor of the McLean Bible megachurch in McLean and a member of the Jews for Jesus board of directors. This year, McLean contributed a small number of volunteers and the campaign has no advertising, as there was in 2004.
Once again, I have to say that when you lower your budget, your employees, and your expectations, it shows that you are—say it with me, folks—losing. And losing makes you—once again, people: Losers.
But it comes at a time when congregations of messianic Jews are growing, albeit slowly. There are about 300 such congregations in the United States, up from none around 1970, according to the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations. Jewish groups that work to oppose conversion efforts estimate that 200,000 American Jews have become believers in Christ in the past three decades.
What else has grown since 1970: People who have home computers, VCRs, SUVs, PDAs, stock portfolios—I mean, really. If you have to reach back to the organization’s beginnings to prove that it has grown, you are reaching, indeed. However, we can take a look at one congregation of Faux Jews in particular that I encountered some time ago. The “rabbi” of that congregation actually bragged that he had A 34% Jewish congregation. Wow. One-third of his congregation called themselves Jews, or had Jewish parents or grandparents or great-grandparents. Which means that two-thirds did not. That’s something you never hear about from these J4Js: How high a percentage of their congregations are not Jewish. And then you get the nutty stuff like this, which makes real Jews sit up and, well, laugh.
Congregation Zion’s Sake also sponsors a Messianic Davidic dance team led by Rebbitzin Barb Carlson. Many of their dances consist of the “circle dance” which represents unity. It is a traditional Judaic belief that demonic forces cannot penetrate a circle. They dance before the Lord, sowing praise and worship unto the God of Israel! The Zion’s Sake Dancers have ministered locally and globally, having been called to worship and share Yeshua in our local prisons and jails, numerous churches, city festivals, and to the nations having ministered in St. Petersburg and Omsk, Siberia-Russia.
I’ve never quite heard the Hora described in such a manner. Next time I dance it at a bar or bat mitzvah, I will remember that I’m also guarding against demons. By dancing “Davidically.”
And just in case you think that this is an oddity, read on:
“How can you say you love Jews if you withhold the messiah from them?” asked Stephen Katz, director of the local Jews for Jesus office, who handed out brochures to commuters at the Foggy Bottom Metro during Tuesday’s morning rush hour.
Working with him was Adam Myers, 21, a junior at Liberty University, who said it bothers him that so many people at his church believe that proselytizing to Jews is unnecessary.
“It’s just not politically correct to tell people that if you want to go to heaven, you have to accept Jesus. What we’re saying is intolerant, just like if a doctor said you need to take this medicine, that is intolerant,” he said.
If anyone can please interpret what Adam Myers means about doctors and tolerance, I’d appreciate it. Because it makes absolutely no sense to me. Or to another college student, who happens to be Jewish:
While passing out brochures, Katz got the e-mail address of Michaela Curtis, a 21-year-old intern from North Carolina who grew up in a Christian household where interest in Judaism was high.
“Jews for Jesus is true Judaism, because Jesus was the king of the Jews,” she said. “It makes perfect sense to me.”
But nearby was Bess Lender, a Jewish George Washington University senior, who disagreed.
“They’ll promote themselves as Jewish,” Lender said, “but it’s just silly to me to think you can be Jewish and believe in Christ as the messiah.”
Attagirl. Show ’em why the J4Js are doing such a crappy job. Because their mission is stupid to begin with.
Jewish. Christian. Pick one, and only one. Stop trying to pretend you can be both.
Typo here, it should read all
Of course you could say that some Jews do not loathe them in the sense of hate or abhor. Many of us just despise them or to quote Mr. T “pity the fool.
J4J are like crack dealers.
They approach Jews, trying to sell what is deadly poison to the Jewish soul. And they will say and do anything in order to make a sale.
You want to be a Christian? Great, go be it. You want to go around claiming that Christianity is Judaism? For that, you will forever be my enemy, just like you would be if you tried selling crack to children at the local playground.
Just imagine the reception they’d get if they were Muslims for Jesus. I’m not sure whether or not I wish that even on them. It’s kind of a wash.
oy, they’ve been outside the Union Station metro last week and this week. very annoying.
Several years ago, I began to receive literature from J4Js. They must have a lot of money, because the material looked expensive.
I returned it, and told them to take my name off their mailing list, as I wasn’t buying what they were selling. They ignored my request, and kept sending me their junk mail.
I finally figured out how they got my name and address. The adult son of a close friend of mine, who lived about 1500 miles away, had given it to them. I phoned him, asked him whether he’d done it, and when he admitted it, I told him that if he wanted to remain on a friendly basis, he’d get them off my back fast.
I never heard from them again. My friend’s son had become an evangelical Christian, but the rest of his family wasn’t involved in that sort of thing.
I’ve never been religious, so he must have thought I was ripe for the picking. Little did he know. LOL
Jewish. Christian. Pick one, and only one. Stop trying to pretend you can be both.
You may not be able to be both, but you can certainly respect both, as well as anyone in transition from one to the other. I don’t understand your anger at J4J. They don’t threaten to kill anyone that changes (or does not change) his religion. They don’t blow themselves or anyone else up.
I never understood why Muslims were so eager to kill anyone that left Islam. Are they so insecure in their faith that they are afraid if one leaves, everyone will leave?
Equally I don’t understand why J4J upsets you so much.
As Matthew 5:17 said Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Jesus was born a Jew (his mother was Jewish), he was raised a Jew, he lived as a Jew, and he died and was buried as a Jew. The question is what happened after he was laid in the grave.
I believe I know, and because of that, I believe I will see him in Heaven. But I also expect to see many Jews there, who followed the Law and who listened to the Prophets, and who lived within the Compact that G-d established with the Jewish People.
I am not offended if Jews attempt to convert Christians, or if Christians attempt to convert Jews, but I think both are wasting their time. Both should be working to convert either Muslims to Judiasm or Christianity, or at least to being the Muslim faith out of the 8th century and into the 21st century.
Because they are liars. Their tools are deceit. They’re not just trying to convert Jews to Christianity, they’re trying to do it on the sly, and pretend that they’re not doing it.
I do respect Christians. But not the ones who try to destroy my people. And that’s what the J4Js are trying to do.
Of course you’re not offended if Jews try to convert Christians. Because we don’t. Jews aren’t evangelical.
Though I’m starting to think we should be.
Not only that — they make their attempts to convert Jews even as they say explicitly that they are not trying to convert them. Add hypocrisy to the list.
I am a Christian, and I certainly don’t agree with efforts to make “Christians” out of Jews.
But I am curious:
Why is it that Jews can believe Menachem Schneerson is the Messiah or follow any number of totally unbiblical New Age movements and still be considered Jewish, but the moment a Jew believes in Jesus as the Messiah promised throughout the Torah, he/she ceases to be a Jew?
Heck, I know a LOT of Jews who are athiests – a belief system that is totally in opposition to Judaism and the Bible – but no one questions their Jewish-ness.
Lets see, they lie, attempt to convince people to become traitors, attempt to cause people to violate the commandments against avodas zara (idol worship) (like the golden calf) …
According to their own beliefs make people subject to the punishment of “burning in hell for eternity”
The torah says that when someone is a “false witness”, their punishment is to have done to them what they attempted to have done to their victim.
We just read in the Torah what happened to the spies, Korach, and Bilaam. Sounds like they are trying to be all three.
Ryan, the number of Jews who believe Schneerson was the messiah is minimal. When some years ago there was a rumor that he was going to so declare himself a non-Jewish friend of mine called to ask what I knew about it.
I pointed out that Schneerson had said the messiah would come when all Jews observed the Sabbath according to Jewish law and at least one of us was going to the ball game Saturday.
Anyone wanting to see why Jesus was *not* foretold in the Torah should drop by http://www.jewsforjudaism.org It is from an Orthodox perspective. I will only add that to the extent that Jews believe in a non-metaphoric messiah, we will now him because he will have ushered in an era of peace and justice. Now, I just woke up and I haven’t seen a paper yet this morning, but unless something really unusual happened overnight, we’re not there yet.
On the other hand, the Yankees are below .500 so there are signs of it.
I’m not well versed in the J4J movement, but if they employ the tactics described here, I would find that objectionable. However, as a Christian, I think it’s totally acceptable to try to convert anyone, including Jews, to authentic Christianity. Of course I would never persist in this to the point of offense, not only out of good manners, but because a hard sell will not work.
Ryan, you’re confusing Judaism the religion with Judaism the culture and ethnicity.
We look at Jews who are New Age or atheist as Jews who have lost their way and hope for them to come back.
In fact, even Jews who succumb to the lies of the J4Js are welcomed back into the fold when they recover. And there is an 80% recovery rate, according to Jews for Judaism.
Which speaks rather poorly of the J4Js once people discover their lies.
As for Jews who believe that Rabbi Schneerson was the Messiah, well, I don’t see how that doesn’t make them Jewish. In every generation, we wait and hope for Moshiach. We’ve been wrong many times before.
One quibble – Meryl, you have filed your original post under “Juvenile Scorn.” I do not think that is appropriate. J4J has calculatingly earned every bit of the opprobrium and contempt in which it is held. Their very adult deceitfulness merits a new file, with a new more adult name. I propose “A Measured Contempt.”
chsw
Well, my “Juvenile Scorn” category is deliberately titled that because Tacitus (Josh Trevino before we knew he was Tacitus) gave me that title in a debate I had with Aziz Poonawalla about the lie that was the “genetic bomb” being developed by Israel. So the title itself is loaded with grownup scorn, as I have worn it proudly ever since.
So nope, no new category. When I use “juvenile scorn,” I am being sarcastic. There is nothing juvenile about my scorn.
Okay, well, sometimes there is. But you can generally tell the difference.
Meryl they’re trying to do it on the sly, and pretend that they’re not doing it.
Would you favor up front evangelicals seeking to convert them?
Meryl But not the ones who try to destroy my people.
In what way does becoming a Christian destroy your people?
John M I think it’s totally acceptable to try to convert anyone, including Jews
You are right. Mark 16:15 said to go into “all the world”, not “all the world except where my people are.”
Alex Bensky the Yankees are below .500 so there are signs of it.
The signs from Iran are even stronger. He may be returning even sooner than many think, and this time it will be as the conquerer the Jews have been looking for
Meryl And there is an 80% recovery rate, according to Jews for Judaism.
So it sounds like some of your people are evangelical.
Don: No, I don’t favor up-front evangelicals trying to convert Jews, either. And the answer to your question is rather obvious: If every Jew in the world converted to Christianity, there would be no Jews remaining. I don’t see the goal of converting all Jews as any different from physically destroying us. The end result is the same.
As for the 80% recovery rate, no, it has nothing to do with evangelicism and everything to do with the poor fools discovering they’ve been lied to.
You must realize that by virtue of my retaining my lifelong Judaism I think that my religion is the correct one. I certainly hope no one is surprised by this admission. As such, I disapprove greatly of any attempt to convert Jews to anything.
But the J4Js really do push one of my biggest buttons. I think it has to do with the deception they use. I really hate liars.
“You must realize that by virtue of my retaining my lifelong Judaism I think that my religion is the correct one. I certainly hope no one is surprised by this admission. As such, I disapprove greatly of any attempt to convert Jews to anything.”
So you “disapprove greatly” of anyone trying to convince anyone else of something that you personally disagree with? What an odd way to live one’s life.
Don, when a Jew practices avodah zarah (mis-translated by the KJV as “Idol worship”), it endangers not only him, but the entire Jewish people. If enough of the Jewish people do so (G-d protect us), it can endanger the entire world.
Avodah zarah occurs any time someone worships anything other than G-d. It also occurs when a Jew believes that anything other than G-d has power in partnership with G-d.
That is why converting Jews to Christianity endangers the Jewish people. Christianity perverted the Jewish concept of messiah by mixing it with pagan polytheistic beliefs, turning the idea of the messiah into a god or a demi-god. Christians worship their messiah, and think that a certain man was G-d, or at least in partnership with G-d.
This also answers why a Jew who thinks R. Schneerson was messiah does not thereby automatically exclude himself from the Jewish religion. Jews who think that R. Schneerson was the messiah do not worship him or think that he is other than a human being.
Finally, as Merill pointed out, Jews for Judaism does not proselytize non-Jews to become Jewish. It counsels Jews who have fallen into avodah zarah and shows them how they have been tricked into betraying G-d and the Jewish people, and shows them how to undo the damage they have done to themselves and to the Jewish people.
Btw, any Jew looking for a good cause to support could do a lot worse than donate to Jews for Judaism.
Ryan: There are a few big differences between Lubavich Chassidim and Christianity.
Maimonides wrote the following, regarding the messiah: “And if a king shall stand up from among the House of David, studying Torah and indulging in commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah, and he will coerce all Israel to follow it and to strengthen its weak points, and will fight God’s wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the messiah. If he succeeded and built a Holy Temple in its proper place and gathered the strayed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the messiah for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: “For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship Him with one shoulder (Zephaniah 3:9).” But if he did not succeed until now, or if he was killed, it becomes known that he is not this one of whom the Torah had promised us, and he is indeed like all proper and wholesome kings of the House of David who died. …”
While he was alive the Rebbe was “treated as if he were the messiah,” as were many great Jewish leaders before him. Once he died, however, we now know that this presumption was wrong.
Christianity differs greatly from this opinion in many many places, including the belief in a second coming (where a dead presumed-messiah may come back to finish the job), and the belief in a non-human messiah (that is, the trinity).
Yes, there are a few chassidim who cite some obscure passages hinting that it may be possible for the Rebbe to become the messiah after the messianic resurrection of the world, but these people are a small minority and are considered to be in error by everybody else. (That is, their position is far from normative Judaism.)
Jason: Wow. Way to completely miss the point.
Didn’t we all have this exact same discussion (same people, same positions), six months or a year ago (the last time J4J came up)?
People have a right to proselytize for their religion if they want to — preferably politely and respectfully, of course. Similarly, people have a right to change their religious beliefs if they want to. If someone Jewish wants to become Christian, it’s his or her choice — personally, I think it’s a mistake and they’d be better off learning more about Judaism, but it’s still his or her choice.
J4J, however, is not just any old proselytizing for Christianity — it’s particularly offensive because it is dishonest about its goal of conversion and deceitfully tries to speak in the name of Judaism.
I would ask evangelical Christians to think of how they would feel if Muslims set up a group of mock Christian churches and a mock Christianity called Prophetic Christianity targeting authentic Christians and attempted to convert Christians to Islam by telling them that only by accepting Mohammed as the final prophet, would they become Completed Christians.
These “Churches” would be overseen by Imams who would call themselves Ministers and would be specifically selected from Christian converts to Islam to preach a form of Islam thinly disguised as Christianity. These “Churches” would feature celebrations of Islamicised Christmas’ and Easter’s centering on Mohammed.
Christians should ask themselves how they would feel about such Mosques disguised as Churches and Imams disguised as Ministers. That’s exactly how we feel about it.
For those who truly seek to understand, we are a minority. There are only a few million of us around. We are not fans of missionizing.
Conversion has been a traditional tool within the Christian world to wipe out the Jewish people. Under the Czar, Jewish children as young as 12 were taken away. We have an entire legacy of Spanish Jews who remained conversos, keeping Judaism in secret to avoid being burned at the stake. The Catholic Church would seize Jewish tradition on the supposed claim that a nanny had baptized them into the 19th century.
I repeat we are not fans of it. But neither are you.
Last time I checked conservative Christians were not big fans of Scientology, the Hare Krishnas or any other similar cults.
When an Episcopalian priest declared that she was Muslim and Christian while remaining at her post, Conservative Christian blogs were outraged about it.
When a school district’s policy caused children to receive pagan as well as Christian literature, conservative Christian groups were up in arms about it.
So you aren’t fans of missionary work, when you’re on the other end of it. Neither are we.
Finally regarding the Rabbi Schneerson talking point. a small minority of Chabad Chassidism believe he is the messiah, they do not believe that he is god. Such a belief is incompatible with Judaism.
“The Catholic Church would seize Jewish *children* on the supposed claim that a nanny had baptized them into the 19th century.”
Meryl You must realize that by virtue of my retaining my lifelong Judaism I think that my religion is the correct one…. As such, I disapprove greatly of any attempt to convert Jews to anything.
As a Christian I think my religion is the correct one as well, but I have no objection to people explaining their faiths and trying to convert Christians. I do object to Muslims trying to convert by force or threat of force.
Meryl But the J4Js really do push one of my biggest buttons. I think it has to do with the deception they use. I really hate liars.
I don’t like liars either, and I am not familiar with what J4J says. Can you cite examples of their deception?
Yankev Avodah zarah occurs any time someone worships anything other than G-d. It also occurs when a Jew believes that anything other than G-d has power in partnership with G-d.
Maybe you don’t understand the Christian faith. It is monotheistic, just like Judiasm. I pray to G-d, not to Jesus. But I end my prayers “in the name of Jesus”.
Yankev Christianity perverted the Jewish concept of messiah
What is your concept of messiah?
Yankev Christians worship their messiah, and think that a certain man was G-d, or at least in partnership with G-d.
No, we think he was the Son of G-d, sent to Earth in human form, to die for our sins, and thus assure us of everlasting life. We do not worship Him, we worship G-d who sent Him.
If Christians are so keen to follow Jesus they should remember what he told them about not doing unto others what they would not have others do unto them.(said by Hillel first by the way)
Do Christians love to be missionized by non christians? Would they love Muslims dressing as Christians and opening churches to teach the koran subtly?
Heck, they can’t stand that Mormons do it and Mormons are their own kind!!!
So Christians, don’t do to Jews what you yourself hate to have done.
“Explaining” a religion by people posing as Jews is simply deception and people who need to lie to you to convert you by definition don’t worship G-d.
JFJ itself functions no differently than the Moonie Church
e.g.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/jews_for_jesus/jews_for_jesus7.html
except that its funding comes from mainline Christian churches.
Finally, Don you believe Christianity as monotheistic. We do not. That’s yet another area where we differ.
btw here’s a sample of how Christians feel when they’re on the receiving end of it
http://www.baptistpress.net/bpnews.asp?ID=2150
http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/2007/03/31/churchs-response-to-anti-mormon-dvd/
Don, you need to look around the J4J website. Their statement of faith has all the lies you need to see. But here’s a direct quote from then on how they deliberately use deceptive tactics:
And here is more:
For the rest, I suggest you follow the links and read up for yourself.
Lies, deception, and more lies. That’s what the J4Js are all about.
Don,
It is avodah zarah for a Jew to believe that any human being is part of some “trinity” with G-d. (For technical reasons, it may or may not be when a gentile does it.) The father-son-holy ghost business is incompatible with the core Jewish belief in a unique, individisible and unified G-d.
As to the Jewish concept of messiah, see David Charlap’s post at #20. Judaism does not belief that the messiah will be divine, or part of some trinity, or that prayers must be directed to G-d thru a “son” or anyone else. We certainly don’t believe he will be killed before he finishes his job and then come back to life later to finish it. We don’t believe he will tell people to ignore G-d’s commandments, either. I’m going to stop here before I give any further opinions about “that man” and how his teachings perverted the Jewish religion.
Meryl you need to look around the J4J website. Their statement of faith has all the lies you need to see.
I looked and did not see any lies, however since I don’t know what their real statement of faith is. I do see many things that may not be consistent with the Jewish faith (but just because they disagree with you does not make them lies), and some that are not consistent with mine (although they are consistent with some Christian faiths).
Yankev, Judaism does not belief that the messiah will be divine,
Nor do I. I believe he is the Son of the Devine
or part of some trinity
Nor do I (that is a Catholic term)
or that prayers must be directed to G-d thru a “son†or anyone else
Nor do I. I said above that I pray to G-d, not Jesus, and it is Catholics that pray through “saints”
We certainly don’t believe he will be killed before he finishes his job and then come back to life later to finish it.
It depends on what his job was, and whether he has one or two jobs,
We don’t believe he will tell people to ignore G-d’s commandments, either.
Nor do I.
Yankev, out of curiosity, do you know if belief in the Trinity is considered to violate the first mitzvah Bnai Noach?
Don, believing in a hypostatis , which is their version of a trinity and that the son and holy spirit(which is not aperson but a thing) are both co-equal and co-eternal with G-d is worship of more than one god. It is blatant paganism.
Their belief in the NT as *scripture* and god-breathed as it is put is also nonsense since the NT contains by Christian admission many spurious verses and additions and errors. They number over 100 at last count. G-d does not make error and call it scripture.
It is not just that they disagree with Jews, it is that they disagree with G-d himself by deciding to interpret him as a triune group of personalities each with different avatars and functions.
The “bible” itself states that there is no one equal to G-d at all.
Your own NT which you hold in regard tells you that a house divided cannot stand and that “that which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh” yet the belief is that Jesus was both man and god at the same time.
Since we are told that G-d is spirit alone, this makes for a problem doesnt it? Let alone that G-d cannot die and has no beginning and no end.
“Conversion has been a traditional tool within the Christian world to wipe out the Jewish people.”
I know that Jews have a good many justified historical issues against Christians. But please consider this:
In the heyday of Christian Europe, the Jews were pretty much the *only* non-Christian people allowed to live there as well – not everywhere all the time, but much more than other non-Christians. There were no heathen Europeans in medieval Christian Europe. No Muslims, either. If the medieval Christians had wanted to make Europe totally Judenrein, just as it was heathen-free and Muslim-free, they could have. They didn’t.
“The Catholic Church would seize Jewish *children* on the supposed claim that a nanny had baptized them into the 19th century.â€
If you’re referring to the Edgardo Mortara case, the noun you’re looking for is “child”, not “children”. I am definitely not going to defend the Papal States’ action here (remember “Italy” didn’t exist yet as it does today – the Mortaras lived in a state directly ruled by the Pope) – because I don’t approve and I think it was a tragedy….but again, I’d like to point out that (a) the baptism itself was illegal and (b) in the context of the time and place, the situation was viewed more like the Elian Gonzales case. If one lives in what was essentially a Catholic theocracy, one shouldn’t be surprised if membership of that Church is taken as seriously as citizenship of nation-states is today.
Don, I quoted you their deceptions. I gave you links. I can’t do any more to show you the tricks they use. You need to look for yourself. Go check out Jews for Judaism’s website (links above) for the rest of the tricks.
Atlantic, I think it’s too bad that Christian Europe didn’t throw out the Jews. History might have been very different, and Jews might be a much larger community if they had. Two of the only places that Jews were left alone were India and China. Hindus and Buddhists never really had a problem allowing Jews to be Jews.
Atlantic, parts of Christian Europe did indeed make themselves Judenrein, England twice, Spain, Portugal for example…
by 1945 certainly Europe had come as close to it as possible but even with one government in charge of most of Europe and bent on exterminating Jews and possessing advanced technology… and still didn’t manage to finish the job
medieval europe had to settle for bouts of massacres and expulsions but too many people in power found jews useful, economically and as scapegoats
The Mortara case was simply the most prominent of a variety of cases that was part of the practice of Church at the time, it was not an isolated case and kidnapping children certainly is ‘serious’
Actually, such events occurred in the 20th century. A large number of children were hidden hidden during World War II and then never returned to their relatives. Pope John Paul II, as a parish priest in Poland became known for having ordered one of his parisioners to return such a child.
Pope Pius refused to give Chief Rabbi Herzog the names of approximately 10,000 such children
International Heral Tribune
In the 1999 Dulberg case, the Italian courts backed the father who kidnapped his two daughters from their (Orthodox) mother and ran away to Italy from Israel.
http://www.ou.org/oupr/1999/italy99.htm
http://www.torah.org/services/dulberg.asp
http://www.ou.org/public/statements/1999/betty21.htm
http://www.rickross.com/reference/ultra-orthodox/ultra53.html
Lemon Don, believing in a hypostatis , which is their version of a trinity and that the son and holy spirit(which is not aperson but a thing) are both co-equal and co-eternal with G-d is worship of more than one god.
I have never understood the Catholic concept of the Trinity, but I know they consider themselves monotheistic, that there is one G-d, but that He somehow can be viewed in three different ways.
In my opinion the is one G-d. He sent his only son to die for our sins, He was crucified, died, was and was buried as prophesied, and on the third day he was resurrected and after a short time He was taken to be with G-d. Jesus sits at the right hand of G_d, but that does not mean He is G-d.
I don’t see significant difference between the Catholic teaching and that of J4J, but obviously you do.
Don,
In my opinion the is one G-d. He sent his only son to die for our sins, He was crucified, died, was and was buried as prophesied,…
As prophesied where? Not in the Tanach, Don. Not in the Hebrew bible. See, this is the problem. Our G-d doesn’t have a “son,” other than the metaphorical son that is Israel which is, clearly, the meaning of the biblical passages always quoted by J4J and more honest Christian missionaries in trying to persuade us that we don’t understand our own scriptures.
The problem is that educated Jews know Isaiah, know the prophets, know their words in the original Hebrew without the spin that the Greek and subsequent translations put on it to try to make it say someething it didn’t say. The problem is that Christianity never had a chance of persuading Jews, who knew their own tradition, and so turned to softer targets who didn’t. The cleverness of J4J was in figuring out in the 1970s that there was now a vast respository of Jews who were Jewishly ignorant and therefore ripe for the picking.
So what do you call people who prey on the weakness and ignorance of others? I call them scammers, con artists and predators.
Don, I see NO difference in the Catholics and J4J at all or most other catholic bred religions which is what most christian denominations are in the end. Their pagan belief system springs from the mindless mystery religions of Babylon and they worship a triumverate of gods who are 3 seperate but equal and cojoined beings.
They are very wrong.
And here is what J4J believes
“We believe in one sovereign God, existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit
We believe that Jesus the Messiah was eternally pre-existent and is co-equal with God the Father ; that He took on Himself the nature of man through the virgin birth so that He possesses both divine and human natures.
I should point out that there are those who say that aspects of the modern belief is what is technically called shutfus (could be translated as partnership), then it would not be forbidden to nonJews. However, it is forbidden to Jews.
An example given is the golden calf. The Jews did not worship it as a deity, they did use it as a replacement for the man Moses. The declaration was to use it as a physical symbol of G-d, not as a deity itself.
This in itself is wrong and forbidden to Jews.
Consider how Rambam (Maimonides) describes the fall into idol worship of the days before the flood. The first step was to give honor to the “beings” that G-d had given authority over the world (like the angel in charge of rain). This is the analogy to talking about a “son” in the way that some nonJews have posted.
To find out more, look at some of the Noachide web sites which also discuss the matter from the viewpoint of modern nonJews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27nei_Noah
Welcome to WikiNoah
LynnB As prophesied where? Not in the Tanach, Don.
What is Tanach? I know what Torah is and what Talmud is, but not Tanach.
Matthew 5:17 said Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
I assume He knew the prophecies.
Lemon worship a triumvirate of gods who are 3 separate but equal and conjoined beings
I am not a Catholic, but I do not think they believe in three rqual and conjoined individuals. I believe they believe He is one individual, that can be viewed from different perspectives.
I believe in two separate individuals, but that only one is Devine.
See the Wikipedia article on Tanakh
Each group is of lesser sanctity than the one preceding it.
Torah – dictated specifically by G-d to Moses
Nevi’im – Prophets – details the prophecies given by G-d via prophecy (“through a glass darkly”) and written by them. However, it was not an exact transcription, but a declaration of what they “saw”. There were many more prophets than the ones written down, but only these were commanded to be put in writing for the use of future generations.
Kesuvim – writings – were written by people who had “Ruach Hakodesh” (often translated as holy spirit) but were not told these things as prophecy.
I accidentally forgot to put in a after the Wikipedia quote making it look as my comments were in Wikipedia. The last line of Wikipedia was
The Tanakh is also called מקר×, Mikra or Miqra, meaning “that which is readâ€.
My first comment is
Each group is of lesser sanctity than the one preceding it.
I also forgot the put in the pointer to the soc.culture.jewish FAQ.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/03-Torah-Halacha/
http://shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/03-02.html
http://shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/03-04.html
Sabba Hillel: I fixed your next-to-last post so the quote text ends where it should.
The historical Christian faith is trinitarian, in the sense very briefly summarised in the “one God, three persons†that Lemon quoted (although this is not very useful unless you know what is meant by “person” here). This trinitarianism is shared by J4J and Catholics and the Orthodox and the vast majority of those who call themselves Protestants. In fact, it is considered by most who call themselves Christians to be a fundamental dividing line between Christian and non-Christian. The Catholic Catechism, for example, calls trinitarianism “the central mystery of the Christian faith…the most fundamental and essential teaching in the hierarchy of truthsâ€, and they don’t recognise baptisms made by non-trinitarian ‘churches’ (eg Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons).
So, I don’t know enough about Jewish fringe groups to find an exact parallel, but from a Christian standpoint, Don may be no more a Christian than a J4J is a Jew (depending on the circumstances of his own baptism, he’s either a non-Christian or an apostate, strictly speaking), and your arguing with him about Christian doctrines would be like a Christian trying to argue about rabbinic Judaism with a…um, a Karaite, I suppose.
I can provide a short explanation of classic trinitarian doctrine if Meryl thinks that continuing that line of the discussion is appropriate.
I have other comments on other issues, but they will have to wait until later tonight.
Um… Atlantic, I think that you’re stepping over some boundaries here and moving towards offending Don with that remark about his Christianity.
It’s not for me to say, nor is it for you. I’d rather not have that discussion here, please.
I’m sorry if I crossed a line. If you want to delete it, go ahead (and/or I can restate it more impersonally), but it’s a very interesting parallel to the question of J4Js, which is most of the reason I made that comment.
My position above on who is or is not Christian is not my own invention. As I stated, it’s the position of the overwhelming majority of those who have historically called themselves Christians.
You’re telling me that J4Js are not Jewish (or maybe some of them, in the most tenuous sense, where they are basically total apostates). Obviously, J4Js disagree. I’m not Jewish, so how should I decide who to believe? As I see it, I have only three main options to decide who has the authority to decide is Jewish and who is not: (1) I can make up my own rules (in which case I can believe the J4Js if I want); or (2) I believe everyone who says they are Jewish (in which case I definitely should take the J4Js at their word) or (3) I believe what is said by the overwhelming majority of those who have historically called themselves Jews.
I suppose I could (4) throw my hands up in the air and say it is not for you or me to decide (and in practice this amounts to option 2), but in that case it shouldn’t matter to me if J4Js call themselves Jews or not.
Why do you want me to take option 3 for Jews, while you take option 2 and/or 4 for Christians?